9/11: 25 years after the attacks

00:00:01: Welcome to the podcast

00:00:08: of The Austrian Institute for International Affairs.

00:00:28: most drastic events that took place in near history, at least it was perceived as such.

00:00:35: In nine eleven for those who weren't around at the time two planes crashed into the World Trade Center towers in New York City and these were two planes that were hijacked by Al Qaeda terrorists who hijacked these planes and managed to maneuver them into this two huge towers, if you like.

00:01:06: Sites important buildings in New York City.

00:01:10: so it was also quite symbolic that they hit the World Trade Center.

00:01:13: but we're going talk more about with our senior fellow Daniela Pisoio.

00:01:20: Hi Daniela

00:01:22: Thanks for the invitation.

00:01:24: Daniela, it's great to have you and You are an expert at The Institute For Security Politics Radicalism De-radicalization Counterterrorism Policies.

00:01:36: You do analyze them.

00:01:37: May I ask a quick question?

00:01:39: Where were you on nine eleven that day?

00:01:43: Do what is your personal memory of That Day?

00:01:48: To be honest, I don't quite remember where i was.

00:01:50: You're too young!

00:01:52: Yes so the memory fades.

00:01:55: but um...I do remember the reaction that that I and other people had whilst watching the images on TV And it was interesting because at the time obviously we didn't have social media So we didn' t have this kind of instant reporting uh..and a lot of reports.

00:02:11: We only had what you could see on tv Those images.

00:02:16: they looked surreal.

00:02:18: So I think many people thought okay maybe this is a joke or a movie, it was incredible.

00:02:25: One didn't really associate with something that could actually have happened in reality.

00:02:30: and then there were these dramatic moments when the second tower collapsed.

00:02:36: And that, I think was the moment where people realized oh my god this is really happening.

00:02:40: You know

00:02:41: i remember...I watched it live on CNN which was just incredible.

00:02:45: and um..i got a call from a friend of mine mom who said look there something happened in New York.

00:02:51: she knew that i'm interested international politics and these kind of things.

00:02:55: so i turned on tv.

00:02:56: i was with my sister at home because we were quite young And there was some fire.

00:03:02: You could see something had happened in one of the towers, and then you'll see live on the screen this huge airplane passenger airplane life crashing into these tower end.

00:03:15: it was really a shocking moment as I said watching it live.

00:03:21: maybe why such an event is broadcasted live if like we were all somehow there.

00:03:29: Yeah, Daniela nine eleven has had a huge impact on international politics On also many regions around the globe Directly and indirectly.

00:03:42: I mean one of the consequences was certainly the war on Iraq And also Afghanistan But we'll come a bit later to that.

00:03:52: so my first question would be Is it just such, I mean we perceive as the biggest or most important terrorist event in near history because of what's broadcasted?

00:04:03: but perspective would you also agree that was such a. Important moment has really changed our perceptions and those are the course work politics.

00:04:15: Well, I think technically it was definitely the most spectacular terrorist attack that we have seen in modern days.

00:04:23: Clearly terrorism has existed since antiquity so its not a modern phenomenon but in modern times It is definitely the more spectacular one.

00:04:33: and also The specific aspect of this was an American soil.

00:04:38: So Al Qaeda did orchestrated terrorist attacks before, also in the nineties.

00:04:45: But it wasn't on American soil and most of them were actually not even in the western world.

00:04:52: So that was one point.

00:04:54: The significance I think is definitely quite high for global jihadi movement.

00:05:01: so this was a boost the fact that they could actually attack this superpower, or maybe even the hegemon at the time.

00:05:12: That definitely gave them a lot of confidence and also led to the effect that they received more support not just in terms of people but also in terms money.

00:05:22: however I think for our Western world it was rather their reaction was not necessarily in all its aspects adequate.

00:05:38: We're talking about the war on terror that was initiated by the Bush administration and then also expanded, adopted by many other countries.

00:05:48: I will come back to it a minute but maybe for those who... Al-Qaeda.

00:05:53: All of sudden with this event Islamist jihadist terror organization elevated an international actor was became visible.

00:06:04: Before, maybe many people hadn't heard about al-Qaeda and this moment did if you like jihadist terrorism enter the international stage from then on because we had also the emergence of the so called Islamic State much later.

00:06:28: is that all?

00:06:29: Was Al Qaeda Vanguard in that regard?

00:06:35: Well, it definitely marks a turn In the jihadist ideology again.

00:06:40: It wasn't The first attack on A western target But he was the First Attack in the West On a Western Target.

00:06:49: and Marx this particular turning the ideology which says We need to focus on the far enemy.

00:06:55: So, ideologically and politically the objectives of the jihadi movement I guess if you call it in a global manner are very much local.

00:07:06: They're not focused on changing or affecting fighting necessarily as such The Western world.

00:07:14: their objective have always been local In various Muslim countries But ideologically there was this change to say that in order to be successful, fighting these regimes at home.

00:07:26: We have to fight the West because it's supporting them.

00:07:30: so if we don't get rid of this support then obtain a victory against his regime.

00:07:37: So this was basically the reason why they attacked

00:07:42: U.S.,

00:07:43: and in particular because Osama bin Laden had already issued not one but two declarations of war against the US, The request is actually quite clear.

00:07:53: he wanted to leave Saudi Arabia.

00:07:56: I mean he was from Saudi Arabia so as it were probably the country most closest to his heart.

00:08:04: But he was in general, the idea of the West pulling out their support military and otherwise from various Muslim countries.

00:08:13: And however The interpretation that we heard From the Bush administration and also our administrations Our European governments at a time was not that.

00:08:25: So people were not communicated this political, the strategic thinking of the terrorist organization and This wouldn't have been a justification, of course for the attacks.

00:08:36: But what we got to hear at that time was... The terrorists hate our freedoms!

00:08:42: A terrorist hates the West.

00:08:44: so basically it was justifications which were completely different levels and such they didn't allow any other reaction than very violent one in retaliation.

00:08:57: So if there's lot of research on the discourse that was initiated at a time by the US and also in Europe.

00:09:09: And we can see, I mean obviously there's differences but generally nobody actually bothered to look into the strategic thinking or rationale of what happened and how one can strategically try to fight this kind terrorism or at least to discourage such attacks in the future.

00:09:30: But it was painting this kind of picture where these individuals hate us for whatever reason, yeah?

00:09:37: Maybe we could say they were depicted as essentially evil without any rationale right.

00:09:43: so that makes it easier too.

00:09:45: if you depict it just simply evil You are... The opposite is good and And this also if you like legitimizes any kind of reasons and measures that might be trusted.

00:09:59: At the same time, You can avoid to look into the reasons That might lie underneath terrorism.

00:10:07: again it's not about legitimizing or justifying anything but I mean It is easy depicted as something irrational, and it's easier to fight against.

00:10:22: If we now look into the consequences of the war against Islamist jihadist terrorism there were quite pretty drastic measures that were taken.

00:10:35: I mean one example is Guantanamo and waterboarding in all these kind things that took place outside.

00:10:44: talk about these kind of, like what impact did it have?

00:10:48: Because maybe let's... I don't want to take too much time but i think what Al Qaeda did was an attack not only on the United States.

00:10:57: But It wasn't a world order that was dominated by the united states.

00:11:01: That was their target.

00:11:03: actually right there The imperialist western World Order and hit the west in a time when we all thought it's like the end of history, liberal times you know democracy will evolve everywhere and so on.

00:11:19: So that was also an additional dimension.

00:11:23: um that created this big shock probably.

00:11:26: but then this liberal west in terms of countermeasures showed a different face right?

00:11:31: And could explain what happened.

00:11:37: Well, yes indeed.

00:11:38: So I guess the West or at least they US because Indeed some Western countries did help with some transports of people But but they didn't engage themselves in torture for example.

00:11:51: so you could say that definitely The U.S has fallen into this trap Of then having to show as you said different phase which it definitely not involve human rights.

00:12:00: Yeah at all.

00:12:03: For that we have to briefly come back the idea of discourse and how this whole thing, because these measures had also been sold for people.

00:12:13: The American people were more or less on board with this war on terror in which it was waged.

00:12:19: So there are a lot of discourses about portraying individuals not as human beings but in various ways as a disease, one talked about scourge virus.

00:12:31: So things that you don't actually talk to right?

00:12:34: I mean he wouldn't talk to a disease we just have to destroy it or do away with it.

00:12:39: so and from this set of mind people were taught to see terrorists as something different than, you know American citizens or citizens in general and what has also used then a different denomination.

00:12:57: So one called them enemy combatants which is completely different category too say regular citizen or prisoner of war because even prisoners have rights.

00:13:09: but this new category of an enemy combatant had no right.

00:13:13: So, and obviously there's not a coincidence that they were kept.

00:13:19: Not in the US but in Guantanamo Bay which is in Cuba.

00:13:24: so because technically you also have laws and constitution to guarantee human rights.

00:13:34: of course sooner or later what happened at Guantanao bay came out But not just there, but also in the prison called Abu Ghraib.

00:13:48: In Iraq?

00:13:50: And we can take this very close to home because it was a few days or years later... ...but at that time we had our first trial on counts of terrorism here in Austria and it's interesting to see one aspect that motivated these individuals to get involved with al-Qaeda.

00:14:12: what happened in Abu Ghraib.

00:14:14: So there was a letter, I mean the end.

00:14:17: it proved to be actually fake and this format of YouTube video but doesn't matter because he basically refactored that.

00:14:25: so it wasn't a letter apparently written by woman who she claimed was raped by US soldiers.

00:14:34: Maybe not everybody is aware of Abu Ghreib in Iraq, where American soldiers apparently tortured Iraqi prisoners.

00:14:45: And also that was I mean you would have videos and pictures of these tortures then disseminated.

00:14:57: well the public got to know about it

00:14:59: exactly.

00:15:00: so It came out there he made public.

00:15:04: And so these issues played a huge role in motivating future terrorists and boosting radicalization, but not just this individual incident.

00:15:16: But also the fact that a lot of civilian people including women and children were killed in these wars, so in Afghanistan and Iraq.

00:15:26: In Syria

00:15:28: which were an Iraq and Afghanistan where direct consequences of nine eleven right?

00:15:33: I mean it was kind of justified with the terrorist attack on the United States particularly the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan because Afghanistan was considered to be one of strongholds of al-Qaeda that they would hide.

00:15:52: Yes, exactly.

00:15:53: So I mean logistically Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan at the time so The US made the argument that you know It it's justified to To attack Afghanistan as a state although is we know al-Qaeda was a terrorist organization not a non-state actor and That was also approved by the UN.

00:16:15: exceptionally And generally one criticizes this war less than what followed in Iraq, but still even here one might ask the question if it's reasonable to attack a whole country because terrorist organization is located especially considering that at time there weren't these kind of targeted surgical killings.

00:16:40: But you know basically lot other people were killed in process.

00:16:45: however with Iraqi got worse There was, I mean one there's this famous speech of Colin Powell at the time in DUN to show them you know Saddam Hussein already had weapons of mass destruction and it was going to use them against the West.

00:17:03: So... And that was this emerging argument of preventive war.

00:17:09: so basically to attack somebody before they attacked you which remains a very controversial concept anyway.

00:17:17: But at the time, that point was there were no weapons of mass destruction.

00:17:21: Wasn't it also a part of counter-terrorism measures to be preemptive?

00:17:26: Yes!

00:17:27: Of course!

00:17:28: The other argument is that Saddam Hussein worked with Al Qaeda which again... So I mean overall umbrella for this war on Iraq was counter terrorism but in particular they wanted to show that Iraq actually concretely trying to attack the US.

00:17:49: And so, talk about perhaps only briefly on The Bigger Umbrella.

00:17:53: this was also a part of the strategy that the US were having at the time too.

00:18:00: they would initially obviously have good intended purpose to democratize the Middle East what their idea is and working with theory which badly interpreted at the time.

00:18:12: So, a democratic peace theory that said that democracies will not go to work with each other which is true and based on this they... The idea was to say well you know if Iraq is democratizing it would basically spread to the other countries as well And then there'll be peace in the Middle East.

00:18:31: Now the problem is although democracies do not go toward one another states which are in a transition towards democracy, particularly vulnerable to conflict.

00:18:45: And

00:18:45: I think it was also this rather naive idea that is of course strongly supported by the superiority or the dominance over liberal world order.

00:18:58: you can export democracy societies and just implemented there as an external power, it's a superpower is the United States.

00:19:09: But Daniela maybe what I would also like to touch upon which my question will be this really consequence of nine eleven?

00:19:21: What we've seen ever since You mentioned the dehumanization of terrorists and I think that had strong repercussions on Muslims in general.

00:19:36: So, the suspicion against Muslim societies as such maybe many prejudices culturalist approaches And particularly against conservative Muslims.

00:19:52: So if anybody has a beard or is wearing their headscarf, the veil in general... The distinction between what's radical extremists and what's simply conservative religious have become particularly difficult for outsiders when everything is rather depicted as danger?

00:20:13: Could we talk about like what were effects on Muslim societies across the globe after nine eleven.

00:20:22: Really, one of I guess worst consequences is that essentially in very perhaps two simple terms.

00:20:32: but why not associate terrorism with Islam?

00:20:35: So if you ask somebody on the street and talk about terrorism, they would first of all think about Islamist terrorism.

00:20:41: Although it's not only a type of terrorism that we're confronted with.

00:20:45: in fact right-wing is very much under rise And has been.

00:20:49: Of course In the past We had also other kinds of terrorism With other ideologies.

00:20:55: But The reason why we have this situation Is again It very much has to do with which politicians reacted to the terror attacks.

00:21:04: And I put here, especially on Europe because Europe already had a lot of experience with terrorism ethnic separatist terrorism, IRA in Spain left-wing terrorism the seventies in Germany and Italy.

00:21:20: And there was already a lot of research and lessons learned also politically In terms understanding what are causes for terrorism?

00:21:28: The fact that certain grievances motivate people to join these kinds of organisations is the fact that organisations have certain strategies they use.

00:21:37: They pursue ways where you can influence and discurried all such strategies.

00:21:43: But one didn't actually look into this body of knowledge, but because the terrorism was coming from outside they looked for something new as if there were completely new causes to it.

00:21:54: And they looked at that one thing which is different The religion Islam.

00:21:59: So first explanation of these attacks Because in meantime we also had some In two thousand four the attack in Madrid Two thousand five in London.

00:22:09: So the first explanations were all it has to do with religion and then obviously, It turned out.

00:22:16: Of course texts are being instrumentalized for certain purposes but religions not a cause of terrorism.

00:22:23: Then one started to look into features of Muslims themselves.

00:22:27: To see how are the muslims perhaps different, to everybody else as if that would be an explanation for terrorism.

00:22:34: and One looked at you know like levels of income That integration debate starting to emerge over time.

00:22:41: And this is what led to such consequences Because all of a sudden one didn't look at situations but at features of certain people, as if that would be some kind of explanation for terrorism.

00:22:57: And that led to the fact then you know Muslims in Europe became a suspicious community

00:23:05: Because they were already outsiders.

00:23:09: probably seen is different and this comes new layer too.

00:23:14: it's dangerous

00:23:15: Not necessarily.

00:23:16: I mean This was also something in this context, because before of course I mean we don't need to talk about it in detail.

00:23:25: Of course there was racism already in Europe but it was associated with ethnic origin.

00:23:31: so one would talk about you know Moroccans Algerians Bosnians whatever yeah?

00:23:36: So then after that they came this category of Muslims for all of them ignoring of course and between the communities, but also in terms of various kinds of Islam.

00:23:50: Yeah?

00:23:50: And so this kind you know idea of suspicion for all Muslims unfortunately came actually from the way in which politics politicians dealt with a situation

00:24:03: at that time and still do.

00:24:04: actually it was...and what uh..was often overseen and is still is overseen Is that there were also lot of terrorist attacks Muslim countries.

00:24:14: and what comes into my mind is also these horrible attacks in Istanbul, for instance which killed lots of people.

00:24:19: It would have attacks on Egypt than elsewhere.

00:24:22: so it's not that was just the West affected by it but Al-Qaeda hit other countries as well.

00:24:32: targeted muslim societies.

00:24:34: Yeah I mean if you look at numbers majority victims are actually Muslims.

00:24:42: Yeah, Daniela becoming closer to the end of our conversation.

00:24:47: But let me ask you I mean if i don't want uh because You said it was dehumanized and depicted as the evil irrational And so on.

00:24:59: um and then It's easy To ignore potential reasons behind it?

00:25:06: I mean generally speaking Why does terrorism emerge?

00:25:10: Is there research on that?

00:25:12: it's, I think they were a lot in the past.

00:25:14: There are assumptions.

00:25:15: that is kind of economic and social reasons so that its poor people who become terrorists turned out to be wrong just if you look at rather wealthy Saudi families and were students who studied abroad.

00:25:37: So it's not, didn't fit to this classical image of a poor person who stands up and kind of becomes radicalized then starts fighting.

00:25:46: so what could you give us some insights about like?

00:25:49: What are I mean?

00:25:51: there might be many factors but Like what aren't the main discussions and debates about The reasons why terrorists or terrorism emerges And white people get radicalized.

00:26:02: So it's always useful to differentiate between, you know causes of terrorism in general or at the group or society level and then individuals because there are psychological motivations that move people too join but In general.

00:26:16: so It definitely starts with some kind of grievance.

00:26:21: Grievance and injustice.

00:26:22: however as social movements scholars say There is a lot of grievances around the world But not many protest movement.

00:26:29: So that's not enough, you always need a movement um That basically can articulate these kinds of grievances in a way that can motivate people to actually join uh In the fight or in this case in terrorist attacks.

00:26:43: so for if we take this case Of The Jihadi of the global jihadi movement and the ideologues at a certain moment They basically, actually if you look at the text that Osama bin Laden himself wrote these declarations of war.

00:27:00: His main concern was he saw himself as an avant-garde representative and defender off his people right?

00:27:07: Not different to say other kinds of generations of terrorists before him.

00:27:12: And He talks about You know The bad living conditions Of the People and even uses expressions like human rights.

00:27:20: I mean, he was educating the West and you know these things basically stuck with him.

00:27:24: So his main issue is that Saudi regime was oppressing.

00:27:30: in his view people from them as i said before it kind of jumped to.

00:27:35: okay but who's actually supporting the Saudi regime?

00:27:38: What are the Americans?

00:27:38: we have to fight the Americans.

00:27:40: so this is basically the constellation at time.

00:27:46: This wasn't just for Saudi Arabia.

00:27:49: The individuals saw that they can improve, I mean the lives of Muslim people in various Muslim countries if the Western influence is removed.

00:28:00: They managed before a nine-eleven.

00:28:02: they manage Afghanistan when they...they managed to obtain victory against other big world power at the time, the Russians.

00:28:13: but there was still the Cold War at the Time.

00:28:15: That was their first boost of the movement, and now with nine-eleven it was a second boost.

00:28:20: So that's basically at that level... Of course terrorist organizations if we look at their strategic levels have interests on their own.

00:28:27: so research says once you have an organization going its main interest is going to be survival which explains why sometimes terrorist organizations continue to orchestrate terror attacks although they may reach their purposes or although their purpose cannot actually be reached but they want to survive and grow.

00:28:48: It's basically like a different kind of firm.

00:28:52: so best example here is perhaps with the IS, Islamic State in which case after awhile people don't know anymore Is it really a terrorist organization still or an organized crime?

00:29:06: because they were, and there still are very much involved in these kinds of activities as well.

00:29:10: So with the IS that basically is studied which we want to have this ideal utopian Islamic state In the end it was about you know how can we survive and grow?

00:29:19: And basically have a lot of money and prosper.

00:29:22: so This is dead level.

00:29:23: but then though off course Is the question.

00:29:24: he mentioned his individuals who by any measure Were successful I suppose in their lives.

00:29:31: when they were studying They had enough financial means.

00:29:35: So why get involved in these kinds of activity?

00:29:38: Well, for the individual person it's a political goal and this is one function of radicalization process to convince that through those acts you can actually influence and affect world politics.

00:29:53: It's of course utopian, but this is what they actually think.

00:29:57: So Al-Qaeda was in fact very surprised at the end that Americans did not withdraw their troops from Saudi Arabia But it came out and after them They actually thought that this is going to change the geopolitical situation at a time.

00:30:13: But you have also other kinds of motivations, which are more on the psychological level and perhaps not as obvious.

00:30:20: when we're in these kind of organizations... You get an impression from those who say they do something special or super important.

00:30:28: You know what I mean?

00:30:34: you're on a special mission and of course what happens is it becomes kind of second family or in fact, even replaces your family at home.

00:30:45: Which the reason why also these guys spent lot time together.

00:30:50: because motivation to eventually do this kinds things... The last push as we were was not easy But if you are together, then we can basically push each other and say come on.

00:31:00: You cannot give up!

00:31:02: We don't want to let down your friends... So there's a cobweb of mechanisms that make sure these people stay on track because some were having second thoughts actually But also in general thinking about for example suicide bombers.

00:31:21: There's a whole ritual In preparing them.

00:31:24: there is the reason why they They film short video saying goodbye to their family and friends And arguing what are doing it because once you do this video It's very difficult.

00:31:34: then go back.

00:31:35: I say well actually, I don't want to do anymore.

00:31:39: So so I think the important thing is to remember that there's a situation on the ground, but also an organization with own interests and trying to bind people into these kinds of acts.

00:31:52: And then it has some kind of benefits at psychological level for those who get involved eventually in terrorist attacks themselves.

00:32:00: Is this case suicide?

00:32:05: To sacrifice your own life is a phenomenon that we encounter with kind of religious motivated terrorism, or do you find these examples also in other terrorist organizations?

00:32:19: Well it's definitely not specific for religiously motivated or religiously inspired terrorist organisations at all.

00:32:28: In fact, they weren't the first ones to use them but they were the one's who actually professionalized suicide attacks and even have special units for them.

00:32:38: By a left-wing terrorist organization at LTE, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ilam in Sri Lanka.

00:32:46: The reason why terrorist organizations used this kind of tactic is because it has tactical advantages.

00:32:57: It doesn't leave any traces.

00:32:59: I mean, not in a meaningful way it's very cheap and its spectacular And also make sure that there is nobody left to question.

00:33:10: So from the tactical perspective it has certain advantages that various terrorist organizations have used

00:33:16: But requires another level of radicalization right?

00:33:20: To sacrifice your own life for an organization

00:33:23: Yeah Yeah, well I mean there's this level of how one talks and basically grooms individuals towards that purpose.

00:33:35: But it is also a strategic level.

00:33:37: so there is quotation by Azarkawi who was the ideologue of Al Qaeda And he says... Basically He shows the advantages of suicide bombing.

00:33:54: There's no mentioning of religion there at all.

00:33:57: Now, for the individual who actually engages in this act... ...there is an aspect of paradise.

00:34:05: I mean one gets told that if you do it and end up in Paradise as a martyr.

00:34:12: but these are not the main reasons or argumentation to say This higher purpose super important for your community and you know your act of sacrifice will lead to a better situation, a better world for them.

00:34:31: And if you look at this way then it's not something that is completely unfamiliar to us.

00:34:37: I mean think about the kamikaze case in The Second World War but also generally in wars how people basically go and sacrifice their lives religious, but it has to do with the faith of your country or group.

00:34:56: Daniela is there something you would like to add that we have left out?

00:35:00: What do you think is important?

00:35:10: There have been some analysis but I think it's not necessary to go into very granular details.

00:35:17: It is quite obvious, clearly not necessarily mentioned by politics or politicians the disastrous consequences of the war on terror.

00:35:26: so in terms of effectiveness do we now have less terrorism than before?

00:35:33: Well, the answer is definitely no.

00:35:35: So we don't have now just one but two terrorist organizations with Islamic State which has a direct consequence of the war in Iraq.

00:35:43: The fact that these organizations have spread massively on other continents.

00:35:49: I mean not just in Asia and other countries in Asia But also In Africa.

00:35:55: And the unfortunate aspect One still doesn't look very much into the actual causes and strategies of terrorism.

00:36:06: But one still has this kind of short-term political view, how can I show strength at home by fighting not just organizations but ideologies?

00:36:20: And there's a fear actually going to the details saying well you know that is situation on the ground And you know, there are other means that we can employ.

00:36:32: Think about for example the IRA in the UK.

00:36:37: The conflict took a lot of time and it only ended when government was willing to actually sit down talk with terrorists.

00:36:46: Now I'm not arguing if they should sit-down or talk to Al Qaeda But then we should invest more effort into understanding situations on ground and what motivates people to join these kinds of organizations.

00:37:00: Because only like this we can actually, you know discourage them or give them alternatives.

00:37:06: by bombing countries I mean i'm saying is because it continues.

00:37:10: so the bombing off Iran was also in a sense argued as a counter terrorist operation led, among others to perhaps even more support for the Iranian regime.

00:37:24: Definitely has not led to democracy in Iran.

00:37:29: and you know whenever countries are being bombed there will be civilian victims And this would lead definitely to more terrorism.

00:37:39: So it seems that one doesn't learn from history.

00:37:43: The problem is that consequences hit Europe first because Europe is just geopolitically closer to these regions, so sometimes out of pragmatic reasons terrorist organizations will choose to hit Europe as part of the West very broadly defined.

00:38:00: Because it's more difficult to reach US and this something that again I don't see much in political debate.

00:38:08: Thank you so much Daniela.

00:38:10: This was a really interesting talk on occasion for the twenty-fifth anniversary The events of nine eleven, which were really disastrous for New York City and the people who left their lives there.

00:38:25: Of course it was a huge, huge attack on beyond.

00:38:30: It wasn't only in New York city also in Washington DC at other places of the United States And it was this spectacular terrorist attack that was broadcasted pretty much live on TV mainly Muslim societies around the globe.

00:38:50: Thank you so much and to our listeners, I can say stay tuned.

00:38:54: we will come up with further podcasts

00:39:15: throughout.